The British Men of Letters battle. An alternate dimension. Major deaths. Lucifer's baby.
TV Fanatic staff writers Sean McKenna and Christine Laskodi and The Winchester Family Business' Alice and Nightsky have taken a moment to breathe from all the action, drama and new questions conjured up to talk about those episodes. And there's a lot of positivity going around.
And what was that ending?!?
So join in the latest Supernatural Round Table to talk about "We Are One" and "All Along the Watchtower."
What was your favorite scene or quote from Supernatural Season 12 Episode 22?
Christine: I'm torn on this one! I loved the motivational speech Sam gave the hunters, but I loved the stuff between Dean and Mary in her mind, as well. Dean saying, "I hate you," to Mary was everything I've wanted to see between them all season.
It's everything emotional that was lacking for such a large part of Supernatural Season 12. But Sam taking charge and telling the hunters that some of them might not come out alive... that's equally as incredible to me.
Alice: Two words: grenade launcher. The whole bit, starting with Sam and Dean talking about going out like Butch and Sundance.
I mean yes, I loved the brotherly hug and the closing scene when Sam brought Mary and then Dean in for the group hug really got me emotional, but I have been waiting for that grenade launcher all season, and the payoff was huge.
Dean even used the "Die Hard" quote! It reflected my frustrations for the whole season. It’s time to blow stuff up!
Nightsky: As a testament to how phenomenal these episodes were, I have a very long list of favorite scenes and quotes! I love all the scenes that Christine and Alice mentioned, but if I have to pick just one, it would be the Winchester hug at the end of the episode.
That had everything: Dean’s relief that his little brother came back alive, Sam’s forgiveness of Mary, and Mary’s reconciliation with her sons. For one glorious minute, they were all happy and together.
Sean: As much as I wasn't a fan of the British Men of Letters, this hour really had a lot of great moments. And yes to all three of your picks! I'll choose a different scene then, the one where Sam stuck with his new leadership role and told Hess "no deal."
I was worried he would feel like he needed them, needed their super weapons. Instead, he stuck to his guns and said good riddance. What a fist-pumping moment.
What was your favorite scene or quote from Supernatural Season 12 Episode 23?
Christine: It's so small, but Castiel healing Dean's leg was my favorite scene. His little eye roll, followed by Dean's smile. And leading up to it, Dean telling Castiel, "We'll work through our stuff, we always do..." was also nice. It made Castiel's death all the worse, because they gave us a glimpse of the good ol' days, and then took them all away. (Maybe.)
Alice: Hmm, that’s a little harder. While I liked the episode overall, dare I say it was Kelly trying to put together the Swedish crib? I just loved the idea of her cursing at a guy named Sven on the phone.
How many of us that have bought furniture from IKEA, wished we could call a guy named Sven and curse him out for our aggravation? She was living my dream.
Nightsky: This is really hard! Castiel’s death and Dean’s reaction were so intense. The scene was beautifully done and properly conveyed the weight of the loss.
I have to choose Crowley’s death though as my favorite. His choice to sacrifice himself to beat Lucifer capped with the dry, “Bye, Boys” was both a triumph and a heartbreak. There was so much going on with Lucifer, the brothers, the two realities and the plan, yet time froze on that moment.
Sean: This hour was lacking for me before it ramped up full throttle at the end. But it was the Bobby reveal that had me excited. I almost expected it to be John Winchester, but seeing Bobby again was a thrill. It was a neat way to bring him back, and that little Rufus nod was pretty cool, too.
Is that the last of the British Men of Letters?
Christine: I HOPE SO. I can't with them. Even in their final moments, I couldn't figure out what the heck their purpose was this season. I don't think I've hated a storyline this much since the Leviathans. You guys remember them, right?
I think I liked that stuff more than British Men of Letters. So yeah, I'm hoping with every fiber of my being that this is the last of the British Men of Letters.
Alice: Please, please, PLEASE??? This must be the end. I can’t think of a more ill-convinced story line in the history of this show. Even the Leviathan are looking like prizes now.
I’m sure it isn’t since there was a dude talking on the other end and there’s probably a whole team in England pretty pissed that their kind was wiped out, but at least Hess and Ketch are gone. That’s a win. If they do come back, can Jack pretty much eliminate them with one swipe of his hand? A girl can dream.
Nightsky: No. I’m fairly certain the introduction of the “voice” at the other end of that trans-Atlantic call means there will be a second wave of attack. I don’t think it will be the most prominent story at the beginning of Supernatural Season 13. Rather, it will take a while to simmer with subtle hints thrown in here and there.
I’ve had a theory that the fourth Prince Of Hell is running the British Men of Letters so I predict this is a multi-seasonal threat.
Sean: I'd be OK if that voice on the other end was just a dropped plotline and that was the end of the British Men of Letters. Aside from Mick, that whole storyline felt like a waste and was missing any grand payoff at the end. Let's just let them be done.
What did you think of Dean's speech to his mom?
Christine: Like I said above, this is the stuff I wanted all season. I wanted to see the Winchesters dealing with the entirety of what their family does, how Mary's deal changed her sons' lives, what hunting did to their family dynamic, and how Mary is handling being faced with it now that she's back and she's seen the effects.
Jensen Ackles is such a talented actor. He played that sequence perfectly. He was so sincere in his love and hate for Mary. I want more of this stuff in Supernatural Season 13.
Alice: It was beautiful, perfect, and very satisfying. It was Dean’s story coming full circle.
It makes sense if you think about it. He’s angry at Mary for making that deal not because of what it did to him, but what it did to Sam. That scene of Dean getting his crustless PB&J and baby Sam in the crib, both unaware of what’s about to happen, was the true starting point.
No wonder Mary went back to that. It was all perfect then, and there were no consequences yet. Dean’s words of forgiveness were the only ones that could pull her out of that. That’s a HUGE step for Dean. This was twelve seasons in the making.
Nightsky: Jensen Ackles and Samantha Smith's acting made that scene pure perfection. I liked it even more than Dean’s tearful soliloquy over Sam’s dead body in “All Hell Breaks Lose.” I was surprised by the “I hate you” sentiment though. That didn’t track given how Dean treasured that one childhood picture of him and his mom.
He had such an idealized memory of Mary; that picture represented a simpler, loving time. I never saw anger or resentment in his eyes when he looked at that picture, so it was hard for me to buy that he was confessing some deeply rooted blame he never acknowledged before.
It’s not unreasonable, and it certainly didn’t take away from the scene, but it stood out in that it didn’t seem grounded in prior emotions.
Sean: The "I hate you" took me aback for a moment, too. But in hearing the full speech and then getting that forgiveness, made it all come together. And the acting stood out even more so in a stellar way. It was an emotional punch, and it was great to see both brothers got those moments during the hour.
Were you shocked by the deaths of Castiel and Crowley? Will they stick?
Christine: I wasn't shocked by Crowley. I actually had a feeling it was headed that way as soon as he told Sam he needed a sacrifice. Crowley hasn't had anything good in ages. If his death sticks (and I hope it does, honestly), it's impactful because he went out for the greater good.
The Castiel one surprised me because it was fast and out of the blue. I can't see the writers killing him off that way. Anyone CLOSE to the Winchesters gets a better sendoff. Castiel is FAMILY. He'd get a better exit than that, so I'm not buying it. I think he'll be back.
Alice: I’m not shocked by any deaths anymore. I’m more perplexed by Crowley’s death than anything. This guy has never done an act of self-sacrifice. He’s always had a plan B behind him. That’s why I’m convinced he’s not dead. I think Castiel is definitely dead, but which Castiel was it? Was that perhaps alt universe Castiel?
Who knows, but no matter what, even if Cas is dead, that can’t be the end for Misha Collins. There’s a whole alternate world of stories out there for him. Either that or Jack will bring Castiel back since he was the one that was supposed to take care of him. That’s probably the more likely scenario. So the answer is no, they won’t stick.
Nightsky: I thought there was a fairly good chance one of them would die, but I was shocked that they both did. I’m absolutely confident that Castiel will come back, probably resurrected by Jack. Crowley is much harder to predict.
The show could survive without him, just as it continued after John and Bobby were killed, but I’m guessing that he does return. I believe his speech about not wanting to be King of Hell was the set-up for him to be brought back in a new capacity, a total rewrite of Crowley’s role in the story.
Sean: Yes and no. I guessed Crowley's death, but Castiel's felt out of the blue and sort of quick and done. But I also have a hard time believing they will stick either. Supernatural has always had a hard time in making deaths permanent. Guess we will see what's in store soon enough.
Do you want to see more of the alternate world?
Christine: Kind of? It's an interesting premise, but it's also really reminiscent of the purgatory world that Dean was trapped in. After all of this disappointment with the British Men of Letters, I need a palate cleanser, not more of something I've seen before.
But if they're able to use that alternate world in different ways, then yeah, sign me up.
Alice: Of course, because with this scenario anyone can come back. Even though it was alt Bobby, I was so damn thrilled to see Jim Beaver again. Yay, they found a way for him to come back in some capacity! I was worried he was going to miss a season and have his streak ruined.
But honestly, this show needs some fresh ideas and alternate universe versions of monsters and people we know and have lost sounds good to me. The writers can make up anything they want and we fans can’t cry foul due to continuity errors.
This could give the writers a lot of freedom, should they run with it. I just hope it doesn’t get too crazy like the alternate worlds on The Flash.
Nightsky: Absolutely!! The possibilities are brilliant. Bobby can once again have a major role in the story, as the Alternate Earth (I refuse to call it Apocalyptic Earth because that is too darn hard to spell!) expert and hunting guide. He can team with Mary in fighting Lucifer.
The writers can bring back any characters they want and rewrite canon! It’s a complete redo! It’s a dystopian spinoff taking place within Supernatural. Cas, Sam and Dean deal with Jack in half the show while Bobby, Mary and Lucifer (and maybe Crowley) are the other half of the show.
It relieves the filming pressure on the Js but offers a tantalizing, completely fresh storyline.
Sean: I'm intrigued, and there's a lot of possibilities if they go that route. And it could be cool seeing more of that alternate world. Hopefully, there's more to it on the larger story than just showing another cool dimension, too.
Is Lucifer's baby the next big bad or the newest good guy?
Christine: Oh man! It's so hard to tell. All we got was fiery footprints, yellow-ish eyes, and a CREEEEEEPY smile. I don't know what I'm supposed to make of that! He was a full blown child, right? He definitely didn't look like a baby. I want to believe he'll be a good guy though, weird as that might sound.
Can anyone actually destroy Lucifer other than his own kid? Wouldn't that be an interesting twist?
Alice: I want him to be good, I really do, but that evil look on his face at the end told us otherwise. I think he’ll just turn out to be another morally ambiguous character that could go either way depending on the mood of the writer. He’ll be a handful for Sam and Dean which should keep things exciting.
I just hope they don’t have to raise the kid. Three always seems to be a crowd in the bunker.
Nightsky: I agree with Alice. I think the story is going to be them trying to “teach” him to be good. Kelly believed that no one is born bad, but that smile of his looked sinister! He’s going to team up with Castiel, but the question is whether Cas influences Jack or vice-versa.
Will Cas see him as the second-coming and follow where he leads?
Sean: That smile sure seemed evil, didn't it? I feel like that was some misdirection, but there's clearly more to this baby than just good or evil.
Hopes for Supernatural Season 13?
Christine: I'd like to see the show go back to basics for a little while. I felt like Sam and Dean took such a backseat this season. I wouldn't mind going back on the road, two brothers, fighting monsters, staying in crappy motels, and just having fun. I feel like we need to re-connect with the Winchesters.
The ensemble felt too large this season between Cas, Crowley, Mary, Ketch, Mick, Lucifer, etc. I need quality time with Sam and Dean. I need to be reminded of why they do what they do, and why I love this show so much, especially after this whole disjointed season.
I can't be alone in that, right? Did you guys also feel like Sam and Dean weren't at the forefront this season?
Alice: Stories that are exciting, emotional, and don’t suck for starters. I also expect symmetry in the writing, meaning that all writers compare notes and produce a fluid story from week to week instead of the all over the place crap we got in season twelve. I’d like villains that are not cartoon characters or mustache twirlers too.
I also want the writers to remember that the main characters in the story are Sam and Dean and to stop relegating them to supporting characters. There are ways to give Jensen and Jared time off yet still keep Sam and Dean in the center of the story. Other than that, I’m open for anything!
Nightsky: I absolutely agree with Christine that Sam and Dean were afterthoughts this year, sandwiched between all the guest stars’ scenes. I’d like for Sam and Dean to continue getting along, but they need to turn up the emotional bonding. The relationships this year were on valium.
Supernatural has lasted this long because of the brother’s bond and their story, not because the show found a new way to tell horror stories. The plots need to be intellectually worthy of the series. There were several this year that were disastrous missteps. Fans really can tell if the writers are working as a team.
Character portrayals, episodic continuity and myth arcs should be seamless rather than isolated stories by several different individuals. Lastly, can we please return to classic rock or at least the best of the popular songs?? I’ve really missed the beat of the show!
Sean: This may get me some hate, but I'd love for the show to have an end game, to have an end date with something to look forward to. There's clearly still more story to tell, but it would be nice knowing the show is headed toward something and not just spinning wheels for forever.
All that take of legacy and the Winchesters going out in a blaze of glory at least seems like there have been thoughts about it. I'd love to see Sam and Dean at the forefront, taking that charge and doing what they do best.
And I'd love for the stories involved not to feel disjointed and to feel like there is a connection throughout the episodes, headed toward something to achieve that payoff. Supernatural Season 13, here we come!
Sean McKenna is a TV Fanatic Staff Writer. Follow him on Twitter.