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Jane: This is Red John. Lisbon: How can you tell? Jane: Because when it's him I can feel it.
January 25th, 2013 12:10 PM
@Entwife - True, Erica is much warmer than Lorelei.
Yes, it was the recent V remake. The actress that plays Erica was the alien queen, and they showed her convert to her reptilian form a couple of times.
Wow, this thread really has meandered through a whole lot of different topics.
January 25th, 2013 12:00 PM
Watcher, I can see that about Erica. She seems a little more warm-blooded though. Maybe that's just because she's so much more sultry and seductive than Lorelei. But still a MURDERER, haha. But I can't see her ever cutting off Jane's fingers, ever. Just not so cold and cruel. I think Patrick responded to the warmth in her, hence that sizzling, eager kiss. Didn't seem quite so sizzling with Lorelei. I didn't see V, I assume you're talking about the recent remake of it. Barely remember the original.
January 25th, 2013 10:14 AM
@Entwife - i agree. And I especially loved the flickering tongue and nictitating membrane part!!!
Though I always got that image in my head when I saw Erica Flynn. Though in that case it was (at least partially) because she played Anna, a reptilian alien with a flickering tongue and nictitating membrane, in V. I think she also had a pretty nasty tail if I recall.
January 25th, 2013 8:59 AM
continued-- She is a cold-blooded murderer.
January 25th, 2013 8:59 AM
To me, Lorelei gave off a major creep vibe from her first moment on screen. At first I just figured it was a warning bell that this woman is a hooker and on the take. But she's obviously a murderer, as WindowShopper describes. I've never seen any real sign of warmth from her towards anyone. She's cold, calculating, lizard-like and most especially, slavishly and willingly obedient to Red John, a person she knows to be a serial killer. She would have cut Jane's fingers off in a heartbeat. The only thing lacking in her on-screen persona is a thin flicking tongue and a nictitating membrane sliding over her eyeballs to complete the horror of her reptilian core. I take a view similar to b,w & r. Whatever abuse she may or may not have suffered, and I really doubt it was much until she fell in with Red John, even if the life-long lie about her sister twisted her psyche, Lorelei chose Red John and has made her life around him as a murderer herself. She is not to be coddled or excused. She
Rank: Recurring Character
January 25th, 2013 8:07 AM
do you think its possible, that random individual with talent but clear problems of the past, could get on board with a criminal so manipulative? And then its only in hindsight, only later on, do they realize its someone as powerful and dangerous as RJ. But by then, they are already on the conversion process. At first, this only looked like a sketchy person with an interesting perspective, perhaps not that different than a friend who is deep into the drug trade industry. That's what RJ is, there's nothing about him that suggests the most dangerous killer in California. And he certainly doesn't lead you on that way for a long time when you join him at first. So I'm not sure I distinguish the degree of evilness with any of these characters based on their background. Because its quite easy for anybody with a troubled past to get associated with Red John. And its only years into the process that you realize what your doing and what you become. Nobody comes in open to the idea of murdering
Rank: Recurring Character
January 25th, 2013 8:06 AM
Really, ultimately think about this, all it takes is one person to cause someone to become like this. One, particuarly, one as charming, manipulative and powerful as RJ. Ask yourself; is it possible if Lorelei never met RJ she would have never been a criminal? Her mother clearly would have still had an issue with her, but that's an entirely separate issue. And ask yourself this, think about all the people with troubled childhoods and adolescence. Nothing criminal, just troubled childhood. Heck, some of them have grown up very good at somethings and worked. (these accomplices don't get jobs in law enforcement bumming on their couch their whole life). But if they were doubting themselves and everything, and had been for years, and ran into someone as manipulative as RJ, someone as powerful, who surely didn't off the bat didn't get them to succumb to him by openly telling them they'd be assasains and criminals to the degree they are, do you think its possible, that random individual with
Rank: Recurring Character
January 25th, 2013 8:00 AM
I'm not necessairly a believer either than those from rich families who become criminals automatically should be suspected as much more flawed, deserving of punishment and less innocent. It's often at those families where such criminals are breeded where there's the most amount of manipulation, arrogance, ego, and reasons to be either a) taken advantage of b) not properly allowed to prosper and have their potential fulfilled or realized(this happens alot in rich families). This clearly happened with Lorelei at many levels with her sister. Its not fair to say, well the only thing wrong with her was lying about her sister, while other characters had constant physical abuse on top of it. Any act, one that drains on you psychologically and emotionally like that, under such manipulation and expectations from a mother who clearly had some flaws, can destroy a child growing up even if they get to have the best house in the neighborhood.
Rank: Recurring Character
January 25th, 2013 7:55 AM
of falling for someone, someone with other interests and other ideals. They have to have some interests and desires that make them normal. Most assain's don't relate as well with people as these friends do, particuarly to the point that no one in law enforcement would suspect them. This notion that all these RJ friends were inherently flawed from the start I don't agree with. I've always been someone who thinks if put in the appropriate context from the start, or even later on in their life, anybody can become anything, for better or worse. The resentment for Lorelei in particular seems to stem from a)her deviousness is the most recent to be uncovered b) she has directly affected Jane and tried to c) we've had a parent directly put the blame on her and embarrass Lisbon when she suggested the mother take some of the blame.
Rank: Recurring Character
January 25th, 2013 7:51 AM
I'm basically on board with what @windowshopper is saying. You can easily manipulate facts, change perspectives to make any prisoner look far more docile and humanize them. You could say O'Laughlin legitimately loved Van Pelt, worked for the CBI and helped them because he had an interest not just because of the RJ factor, but in the end didn't know what to do and went with the safest thing for him which was stay on RJ's side(hell he even saved his fiancee's wife last season). You could probably turn things to make Rebecca look far more personable, after all nobody in the CBI would have ever expected her, she seemed so nice, tame and was clearly manipulated by RJ into thinking they were lovers. Alot of RJ's friends have jobs that aren't suspecting of criminal backgrounds. Sure, it's to gain an upperhand on law enforcement, but not every criminal would do this. You have to have someone who has some notion of wanting to be with the police, of falling for someone, someone with other intere
January 25th, 2013 12:50 AM
@KM, I have to assume Red John kept her around to do more than sleep with who he told her to (he could just hire a hooker for that). I bet she has killed with her own hands, but I am just making an assumption about that. But even if she didn't, she obviously helped red john to kill so she is responsible for those deaths regardless. I'm trying to see it from your and huisclothes perspectives, but having a hard time doing so. I think I've just seen too much in life to have a more forgiving philosophy. I do believe some people can be rehabilitated, but I don't believe serial killers and their accomplices can be. I think in cases like those, something was just wired wrong from the beginning.
January 25th, 2013 12:41 AM
@KM, to be fair they didn't actually say she was a murderer. But I don't see how she could be in a serial killer's inner circle for 5 years and not be. We do know Wainwright is dead, and was kidnapped and held against his will. The law would hold her responsible for that (you don't need to be the person who pulled the trigger, you just need to be part of the conspiracy to commit the crime). She attempted to cut off Jane's fingers. If the police arrived 5 seconds later she would have. She was part of the conspiracy to kill Lisbon - those crimes could easily get her life in prison. And that is just what we've seen in the past few months.
January 25th, 2013 12:31 AM
@ WindowShopper thanks for your opinion. I was not aware of any evidence that revealed that Lorelei was a murderer. Only that she had been arrested previously. Close Captioning does not always put all the details in. I see her as brainwashed. And, yes, I always feel compassion for people, but I recognize that trauma/victimization/grief/et cetera are not justifications and sometimes justice and consequences are the most compassionate actions. The character of Lorelei, if she survives, will need to face the consequence of her choices and hopefully she can no longer allow her past to drive her life in ways that harm her and others.
@ huisclothes you're welcome. May your heart be well.
January 25th, 2013 12:25 AM
Now we are getting to the meat and potatoes of this whole thing! Starting to see the real picture! It's getting good in here. Almost better than the show!
January 25th, 2013 12:18 AM
@window shopper. funny!
January 24th, 2013 11:47 PM
@huisclothes, You guys are seeing something that I just don't. I don't see her as more empathetic or vulnerable than Rebecca. Rebecca was an abused child looking for love and thought RJ loved her. I think O'Laughlin had genuine feelings for Grace. But he still betrayed her and tried to kill Hightower. Wainwright is dead and Lorelei helped make that happen. I don't see how she can be rehabilitated any more than the others. If she turns against Red John, it won't be because she regrets her crimes, it will be because he acted against her family. That is just revenge,not a change of heart. I think we just see this issue very differently and that's fine. And if I'm ever accused of murder, I'll try my best to get you on my jury! (just teasing)
January 24th, 2013 11:33 PM
@windowshopper. none of this means there should be no consequences for lorelei. but she has certainly been made more dimensional than o'laughlin, rebecca or timothy carter. she seems capable of empathy. has a vulnerable quality -- like she could be rehabilitated.
not saying she deserves it. just think it's important to make these contrasts and comparisons. in most stories, each character shows us a different aspect of the theme. i think that's what we're seeing here.
January 24th, 2013 11:31 PM
@huisclothes, I'm not saying she had an ideal childhood. But millions of kids grow up with physical or sexual abuse, drugs in the family, no father, in a ghetto, seeing stuff no child should see. Our prisons are full of them. But many more don't end up in prison. Everybody has a choice in how they deal with adversity. Some choose well (Lisbon.) Some make a few mistakes but don't seriously hurt others (Jane) and some become violent criminals (Lorelei.) I feel the ones who turn criminal should pay for their actions. Personal accountability is very important to me. They say most child abusers were abused themselves as a child. But we still react with disgust and want them in prison. Why is Lorelei different?
January 24th, 2013 11:21 PM
@km thanks for this contribution. interesting, and i know, from the heart.
January 24th, 2013 11:16 PM
@windowshopper. re lorelei and patrick's similar backgrounds. just a theory i'm toying with. lorelei's mom let her prop her up emotionally from the age of five. she exposed her to stuff no kid should see.. lorelei's life in a beautiful home didn't cut any ice with lorelei, lisbon or me. kids in hovels have better childhoods. dana hoodwinked her with lies about her sister's disappearance. lorelei had to collude with her mother against the new dad about the existence of a sister. a child who gets lied to and is forced to lie for years. from this, psychotics are made. both kids had to assume preternaturally mature roles and were isolated from the world by the parent who abused them everyday. they dealt with it differently. jane is more resilient. some kids are. perhaps his child stardom gave him more of a sense of self. lorelei identified with her abusive parent, chose the abusive red john and became abusive herself.
January 24th, 2013 11:14 PM
@KM, I respect your views, but have no compassion for Lorelei. Everybody wants Jane to get justice for his family. I'm sure the families of Lorelei's victims want justice as well. She is a murderer, has worked with a notorious serial killer for 5 years. Killed or helped RJ kill numerous people. I want her character to end up dead or in prison, so that her victims get justice. For those of you who sympathize with Lorelei, do you also feel bad for O'Laughlin and Rebecca? Timothy Carter? I suspect most of them had tragic pasts. We know Rebecca was abused as a child, Lorelei never was. I don't recall anybody feeling sympathy for Rebecca. If someone can explain this to me I would appreciate it, because I don't really understand where you guys are coming from.
January 24th, 2013 10:52 PM
Cont.
They're all strong; you have to have strength to not allow your grief to steal your desire to live.. In my opinion, Theresa is the strongest of the three. I see the desire to bring peace out of grief in Lisbon and Jane, but Jane's is based in revenge. I find that I feel compassion for all three and I want freedom from the pain and happiness for their characters.
January 24th, 2013 10:44 PM
I see some similarities between Lorelei's and Jane's childhood. I see similarities between Jane and Lisbon's childhood. All three were forced to care/provide for their parent. All three had single parent. We have evidence that both Jane and Lisbon were physically struck. Lorelei and Lisbon both had younger siblings that they strived to protect. Lorelei lost her sister and Lisbon suceeded in raising hers. Lorelei and Lisbon were educated; Jane is self taught. All three have suffered the loss of family that they loved deeply and they carry that pain forward. Jane followed his parent into a career were he preyed on the vulnerabilities of others. Lorelei turned to crime (she has been incarcerated more than once) and Red John. Lisbon appears to have forgiven her father and chose a career that makes it possible to help/protect vulnerable individuals. As a survivor of child abuse I find the three fascinating from the "Do I allow what happened to govern my life and if so how?" way. They're all
January 24th, 2013 10:02 PM
Whoever RJ is, he/she/they have to be 1)smart 2)wealthy 3)cult-leader charismatic 4)politically powerful 5)have the conscience of a mollusk 6)have close connection with law enforcement to infiltrate it extensively and at will 6) physically able to do at least some of the killings 7)not seen as the serial-killer type, but as ordinary-decent type. No one matches all these characteristics, tho some come close. Maybe RJ is a team, each member having one or more of the traits. Roy Tagliaferro was RJ, Sally's husband (as Sally wrote in her suicide note) was RJ. How many RJ's are out there, and who is pulling their strings? Visualize is definitely involved, but how and how closely? Is Stiles one of the team members? Do any of them know who the string puller is?
January 24th, 2013 9:34 PM
@Anitraward1...just read you idea about Jane's father. In some ways, it fits very well. It explains Red John's fascination with Jane and his motivation. The only problem is that Jane's father didn't seem sophisticated enough to pull this off. RJ has lots of devoted followers, connections in high places. Jane's father seemed more a street smart but petty criminal type. But you could be right. They haven't given us any real evidence one way or another so I think your theory has to be considered. My own pet theory is that Red John is Santa Claus. Called Red John because of the suit. Knows when you've been naughty or nice. Used to sliding down chimneys to bypass security. And his minions are really elves. ;-)